Curse

Krill · Nov 18, 2008, 06:30 PM // 18:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyla

I hope you were trolling when you typed this, because 'Sins are very bad in PvP. Are you thinking of the right class?

So everything but top 100 GvG != pvp?

snaek · Nov 18, 2008, 07:00 PM // 19:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyla

Used doesn't imply good.

hb...

ta on and off...
but nearly every class can find its way in ta dependin on teh meta at teh time
(even paras at one time...like wtf???)

ab, if u wanna count that as pvp...

Krill · Nov 18, 2008, 07:13 PM // 19:13

How do you even defend such ridiculous statement Tyla when there are good sin builds for every format and team builds with sins for every level of play up to gvg mAT? Of course sin split is no longer a viable build for high level gvg and BB sin took a bit of a hit, but that doesn't mean the whole class is now useless.

At any rate this thread is a thread for AB sin builds, where there's still a large variety of builds that work well.

Lyynyyrd · Nov 18, 2008, 07:17 PM // 19:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by snaek

hb...

ta on and off...
but nearly every class can find its way in ta dependin on teh meta at teh time
(even paras at one time...like wtf???)

ab, if u wanna count that as pvp...

HB+AB=PvP.

12

Bobby2 · Nov 18, 2008, 07:42 PM // 19:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by arienrhode

At any rate this thread is a thread for AB sin builds, where there's still a large variety of builds that work well.

Anyone with half a brain can gank. You don't necessarily need to be a sin for that, though it's fun.

Very few Sin builds also do something other than just ganking, though.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lyynyyrd

HB+AB=PvP.

And srs bznz at that.

Bobby2 · Nov 18, 2008, 10:24 PM // 22:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by moriz

assassins are only strong in pvp arena that features a) lots of open spaces and movement and b) dumb players.

that basically limits it down to two arenas: alliance battles (aka assassin battles), which features both; and hero battles, which features dumb AI substituting for dumb players, and lots of movement running between shrines.

in every other arena, they are weak purely for the fact that there are better characters you can run in that spot.

QFMFT.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stealth Bomberman

no competition, sin wins by default.

Coming from the same guy that said DW isn't necessary for a good spike. Right.

Quote:

Originally Posted by X Cytherea X

stuff about Promise not being bad in PvP

I just had to spread the word. Many lolz were had.

Quote:

Originally Posted by X CythereaX

oh, and you should cut down on your excessive usage of "oh, and" to start sentences; it sounds very juvenile and unrefined.

Search back far enough and you'll see people use the same words from time to time. What is juvenile, however, is not admitting you're wrong while it's blatantly obvious to the rest of the world, then resorting to personal attacks. GFG.

Quote:

Originally Posted by arienrhode

Three pages and only two or three posters with builds, it's gota be guru.

Yup. Why bother. Good builds are either
- found on PvXwiki, or
- remarkably similar to those found on PvXwiki.

Krill · Nov 18, 2008, 11:18 PM // 23:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bobby2

Yup. Why bother. Good builds are either
- found on PvXwiki, or
- remarkably similar to those found on PvXwiki.

If you actually look at the PvX sin builds for AB most of them are copies strait from RA and other formats with a rez sig. Having the 8th slot for AB opens up different possibilities for chains and the overall build function rather than just slapping in another skill. And TBH a lot of the builds on PvX are garbage because the people that allegedly vet them are either legally retarded or don't actually play GW.

Maybe I'm crazy though, thinking that if someone says "hey, can you help me with something" you might actually post something helpful rather than unrelated blather. Even if it's something that is asked on a regular basis.

Anyway here's a variation of a build I posted that I have been messing around with in my guild:

[build=OwFkUlfTHPm0ShCTCjxHCDWBbBuD]

And zomg it's not on pvxwiki. Charge! is just too cool, for the bold and the brave only.

Bobby2 · Nov 18, 2008, 11:25 PM // 23:25

Nothing but agreement on that. Today I ran:

Dagger 12+1+1
CritS 7+1
Shadow 6+1
Tactics 9

[leaping mantis [email protected]][lotus [email protected]][horns of the [email protected]][falling [email protected]][twisting [email protected]][[email protected]][[email protected]][feigned [email protected]]

Your build is braver. You don't need 10 Tactics though.

Krill · Nov 19, 2008, 01:43 AM // 01:43

Yes I had att's wrong, it's suppose to be 12+1+1 dagger, 9+1 critical, 9 tactics and 3 shadow.

Super Igor · Nov 19, 2008, 01:17 PM // 13:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by arienrhode

@Super Igor

The paradox asscaster is only decent with Lyssa's Aura. You can run it with 12 in deadly arts and 12 in inspiration with ether feast as a self heal.

Not really, it only allows for more energy management so you can spam you stuff mindlessly, but its not the only viable assacaster out there.
SoJ caster still works, even my woh thing will cope well with energy which is it's only real flaw.

Quote:

In general a lot of AB assassins get too defensive with their builds or just bring crap that doesn't work. We've all seen the generic gank builds a zillion times, but if you don't know what else to run stick to the proven and play smart without getting yourself in bad situations.

Hope you arent saying this to me...

X Cytherea X · Nov 19, 2008, 05:41 PM // 17:41

Quote:

So in other words it's a waste of an elite? You could run Mantra of Recovery and have better results. Killing noob stragglers is easy; but why run a build that excels at capping and killing bad players when you could run a build that can cap and kill even decent players?

if the risk/reward of running AP is too much to handle, dont run it. alright ive said enough about that.

Quote:

Oh, and you should increase your use of capital letters at the beginning of new sentences. It sounds very juvenile and unrefined.

it sounds the same. guru is not worth my effort of pressing shift.

Quote:

Search back far enough and you'll see people use the same words from time to time. What is juvenile, however, is not admitting you're wrong while it's blatantly obvious to the rest of the world, then resorting to personal attacks. GFG.

lol you must be pretty sensitive to consider that a personal attack... it was advice. besides, i didnt start the fix ur engrish thing.

Tyla · Nov 19, 2008, 06:29 PM // 18:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by X Cytherea X

if the risk/reward of running AP is too much to handle, dont run it. alright ive said enough about that.

That's just like saying that if the risk and reward of a superior rune is too hard to handle don't run it. Both are bad and take up something valuable.

Quote:

it sounds the same. guru is not worth my effort of pressing shift.

You sure do take the effort of pressing shift when you're using abreviations. Wheeeeeeeeee

Quote:

lol that wasnt a personal attack, it was advice to become a better poster. besides, i didnt start the fix ur engrish thing.

You're the last person who should be offering advice to become a better poster.

Super Igor · Nov 19, 2008, 06:44 PM // 18:44

I agree with Tyla, cytheria is a faggot ups. :>

Back on topic if we are not running some wacky assacasters and going propper melee instead ab code stays the same. Having at least an ims and a snare or utility is almost a must inn ab, so [hidden caltrops] come to mind...good snare that you use to catch kiters, spike and just snare.

two builds:

[build prof=a/w][hidden caltrops][flail][black mantis thrust][jungle strike][trampling ox][falling lotus strike][twisting fangs][dash][/build]
-Standard hc sin, works like a charm in ab able to spike down stuff quickly, snare and move fast.

[build prof=a/d][hidden caltrops][wearying strike][malicious strike][mystic sweep][assassin's remedy][way of the master][dash][optional][/build]
-Fit whatever you like in the optional slot, very strong build, very strong damage, has a snare, moves fast...what else do could you need?

Jeydra · Nov 20, 2008, 01:26 AM // 01:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyla

HAHA CYTHEREA DID A FUNNY - Scrubs calling other people scrubs is funny. Especially since you think that Sinsplit was tactical.

Oh, and Assassins' Promise is bad in PvP. Spikes aren't always going to go through, especially 'Sin spikes.

This post really shows how little you know about AB.

Assassin's Promise is one of the best elites you can run in AB, provided you know what you're doing. Yes, it does not always go through, and sometimes you will miss it. But not often - provided you know what you're doing. Also, even if you do miss, AB is AB is AB. Games do not last 2 minutes like RA games do, and you can always run off and cap another shrine. Assassin's Promise as a skill might be terrible in PvP most of the time, but AB is an exception to the rule. The most effective Elementalist builds in AB run AP - and I know five different top AB'ers who all came to the same conclusion, independently.

When using Assassin's Promise in AB do not use it to begin a chain with, and do not use it when you are not guaranteed a kill. Good targets for AP include solocapping Elementalists with no real defense (use near the end of a chain) and any player who is under severe pressure and so likely to die soon. If possible get an ally to attack the same target with you; spam teamchat if it seems AP will wear off before the target dies.

If you are not confident with AP do not run it.

I suggest the standard Dark Prison / Shadow Prison build for AB:

Shadow Prison
Tiger Stance (lol @ whoever suggested Flail)
Black Mantis Thrust
Jungle Strike
Trampling Ox
Falling Lotus Strike
Twisting Fangs
Dark Prison

If you are confident enough to run AP then drop Shadow Prison for Assassin's Promise.

This build does not have a speedboost, but it has two teleports, which compensates. It also does not have self-heal - so get a good team and someone to heal you. The build linked to in the original video I do not like: you lead with AP (extremely dangerous), Shadow Fang returns you to where you started instead of moving you around (not a good idea since AB emphasizes mobility) and if you miss it takes 45 seconds for both Shadow Fang and AP to cooldown (unlike the above build, which you can lead off either shadowstep).

Sins are one of the better classes to play in AB (on par with Monks and Elementalists), so use them well.

PS: Nice flaming Tyla, especially coming from someone like you.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyla

That's just like saying that if the risk and reward of a superior rune is too hard to handle don't run it. Both are bad and take up something valuable.

Lol. This is AB. Actually not only is this AB, we are talking about Assassins. Sins need 13 Critical Strike if it can be done, and if it means running a Major or even a Superior rune I say do it.

PS: Which player was it in [rawr] who runs Superior Axe? I assume he's a bad player, and therefore the guild he plays in is bad, yes?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyla

Why would you need Crip Victory when you have Hidden Caltrops? Wearying Strikes' downfall is gone under the effects of Assassins' Remedy. The first bar didn't claim originality.

Read. Crytherea said run Wounding Strike and Crippling Victory, not Hidden Caltrops and Crippling Victory.

moriz · Nov 20, 2008, 01:42 AM // 01:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

Lol. This is AB. Actually not only is this AB, we are talking about Assassins. Sins need 13 Critical Strike if it can be done, and if it means running a Major or even a Superior rune I say do it.

PS: Which player was it in [rawr] who runs Superior Axe? I assume he's a bad player, and therefore the guild he plays in is bad, yes?

chop chop runs a superior axe rune simply because he can get away with it. his guild typically runs ~5 layers (though they probably no longer do so in the current metagame) of defense backed up by two of the best monks in the game. you do not have such luxury in AB. in fact, i bet you that he'll take off the superior rune if he's pugging, because without his familiar team, his loss of health is no longer worth the slight increase in damage.

and assassins only run 13 crit if the build really needs the energy. my shove spiker for instance, runs only 10 (and most of its damage comes from twisting fangs to boot). the loss of damage is minimal, and you'll definitely need the additional hitpoints.

about why assassin's promise is generally bad in pvp (AB included):

AP will only benefit you if your build needs its effects. that is, if your build is A) very heavy on energy, and/or B) takes forever to recharge. since such builds are generally unfavourable in pvp, AP is really not all that useful.

you may argue that AP will remedy the problems with such builds, but please consider: AP takes up an elite slot that could be put to better use, and the simple fact that there are builds available that is just as effective WITHOUT the huge energy costs and/or long recharges. unless you are running AP for the sake of running AP, there are builds that function just as well (or even better) that does not need you to sacrifice your elite for energy management.

Jeydra · Nov 20, 2008, 02:00 AM // 02:00

That's the point: you can get away with a Superior rune in AB because you are not going to be facing coordinated offense, and neither are you going to be spiked (one Monk with you = any single player spiking will fail). Because of the unique situations in which AB occurs in you can run a Superior rune and get away with it.

PS: The point about linking Chop Chop is a jibe at Tyla, who makes blanket statements all over Guru while being completely oblivious to the exceptions and calling other people scrubs even though it certainly seems to me that he isn't far off being a scrub himself.

As for Critical Strikes, again, exactly - which is why I wrote there if it's reasonably achievable. If you're running Shove and have 10 Critical Strikes, using a Superior rune still won't get you to 13 Critical Strikes, so you might as well use a Minor. On the other hand, if your build gets you to 12 Critical Strikes with a Minor rune, you might as well use a Major and raise it to 13.

Quote:

Originally Posted by moriz

AP will only benefit you if your build needs its effects. that is, if your build is A) very heavy on energy, and/or B) takes forever to recharge. since such builds are generally unfavourable in pvp, AP is really not all that useful.

you may argue that AP will remedy the problems with such builds, but please consider: AP takes up an elite slot that could be put to better use, and the simple fact that there are builds available that is just as effective WITHOUT the huge energy costs and/or long recharges. unless you are running AP for the sake of running AP, there are builds that function just as well (or even better) that does not need you to sacrifice your elite for energy management.

Dark Prison is 30-second recharge. That is fairly long. Meteor Shower is 60-second recharge, and when backed up with Glyph of Sacrifice it becomes 90 seconds. AP seriously benefits both builds.

You might say that neither build are 'favorable', but I would beg to differ. The Dark Prison build has snare, KD, teleport as well as a reasonably effective chain. Meteor Shower is the single biggest reason why Elementalists cap shrines so effectively in AB. What other elite do you want to use anyway? You could use Shadow Prison instead of Assassin's Promise as I wrote above, which is a tradeoff (gain a second teleport and are no longer vulnerable to missing AP; lose the ability to spike more than once every 12 seconds), but for Elementalists you are stuck. Elemental Attunement is too slow. Searing Flames is great, but not great enough and you take heavy damage when capping shrines. Double Dragon is lulz for obvious reasons. Savannah Heat does not KD. And then?

Do note that here I mean capping teams as opposed to rolling teams; in rolling teams you won't use an Assassin and if you do use an Elementalist that Elementalist will be using Water, in which case you won't need Assassin's Promise.

Bobby2 · Nov 20, 2008, 08:37 AM // 08:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

Assassin's Promise is one of the best elites you can run in AB, provided you know what you're doing. Yes, it does not always go through, and sometimes you will miss it. But not often - provided you know what you're doing. Also, even if you do miss, AB is AB is AB. Games do not last 2 minutes like RA games do, and you can always run off and cap another shrine. Assassin's Promise as a skill might be terrible in PvP most of the time, but AB is an exception to the rule. The most effective Elementalist builds in AB run AP - and I know five different top AB'ers who all came to the same conclusion, independently.

Sins =/= nukers.

xDusT II · Nov 20, 2008, 09:16 AM // 09:16

I think last time I ran a sin in AB I used something along the lines of:

["You're All Alone!"][Black Mantis Thrust][Jungle Strike][Trampling Ox][Falling Lotus Strike][Twisting Fangs][Frenzy][Dash]

[Frenzy] being interchangeable with [Flurry] or [Tiger Stance].

[Hidden Caltrops] is probably a better snare than YAA but then you have to rely on Black Mantis Thrust for the cripple and missing that you lose your KD. Sure YAA can't be used on shrine NPC's unless you split them up but usually their health is so low that you could probably go 2 -> 3 -> 6 and they'd be almost dead. Survival comes from being smart and proper movement. A good team helps as well.

moko · Nov 20, 2008, 12:48 PM // 12:48

ok kids

you can cut down on your stupid e-fights with derailing threads now. you know who you are, consider this a warning.

oh and by the way, i think the build cy posted works pretty well for AB. same with AP having great potentional in organized teams, just not in PUGs tho.

Krill · Nov 20, 2008, 04:06 PM // 16:06

You don't need 13 in critical to run a sin, especially since EoTN brought Falling Lotus and Lotus Strike which are both great in big domage chains. I have never had energy problems with BB sin @ 9 critical and the hammer bash sin @ 10 critical. For AB I think it's better to run minor runes with Nightstalker's insignias so you have more resilience against c-spacers that won't get off the first player they see until one of you is dead.

Run major runes on eles and axe warriors, but not a sin